Setsuna Mudou (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
beyourarmy) wrote2011-06-04 02:49 am
beyourarmy) wrote2011-06-04 02:49 am
Entry tags:
Why I don't ship Setsuna/Sara
Yes, I play Setsuna and don't ship the main canon coupling of the story. A coupling that nearly makes up the personality of the character I play, have played for six years. So I should probably explain, since being asked my opinion on the coupling is a favorite pastime of those around me, of course. Naturally, playing one half of that couple, they would be curious. From here on out, I only need give this link.
When the series started out, I didn't ship them at first. I'm sorry, but Sara beating on Setsuna for taking a beating was both a little appalling and immature. They came off as siblings then. I don't get the whole shoujo gag of girl beats up her boyfriend and it's cute/funny. It bothered me on a level I didn't even acknowledge, until I played him and a Sara slapped him for the first time and it jolted me something awful. She never even asked him why he was such a mess, she just automatically assumed it was a fight, when, really, reading about some of his past, it seems he was bullied for quite some time.
While, yes, Setsuna enjoys fighting, some of it seems to be a necessity of his every day life, and one Sara doesn't comprehend or sympathize with. He should probably be with someone that gets that, and understands his fighting spirit as well. Not to say that his big mouth doesn't bring on a lot of his problems. He, as well, should learn to keep some of his words to himself and find a better outlet. But her hitting him every time he said the wrong thing didn't seem to make any impact or difference on him. He did learn to control his temper better in canon, though.
But sometime after that, while both of them discover and fight their feelings, question themselves, are interrogated by others on them, it started to grow on me. Now they felt more like a couple and less like siblings. She wasn't hitting him anymore, though he was overly protective of her.
One thing worthy of note is the unbalance between them, Setsuna pushing her away for "her own good", rather than letting Sara decide for herself. Part of that is brought on by their mother lecturing him, though. Still, it makes for an unsettling couple, but I like screwed up couples with power imbalances and problems to work out, so this didn't work as an immediate deterrent, but rather made them more interesting. As did Setsuna dubconning Sara.
Yes. You read that right. He dubcons her. He continues in their sexual activities when Sara told him to wait, and that she wasn't ready yet. A Sara player I talked to said that Sara might have liked that, and I could almost view this as Setsuna understanding she was momentarily nervous, but didn't actually want to stop, but still. This unnerved me. Setsuna had seemed so selfish with everything and everyone BUT Sara until right then, then does something so disturbing as that. It was hard to reconcile that with how he usually treated her, so I ignored that for some time.
What sold me on them was when Sara stood up to her mother and all of society and chose her brother, whom she had real feelings for, over going with her mother to another country to become engaged to some man she had never met before. Sadly enough, ditching her mother was the more healthy option. Her mother was being far too controlling. While I'm sure she had Sara's best interests at heart, she was making decisions FOR HER about HER future. Something Sara should have the most say in.
It wasn't until later I realized things might have played out differently if Sara wasn't being pressured into such an outrageous ordeal, forced into an arranged marriage. Without that, with a kind, HEALTHY mother, would she have been driven into this corner? Would she still have picked Setsuna? Would the siblings be as obsessed with each other if they hadn't been parted by her? Setsuna was certain his feelings weren't derived solely from the forbidden, or just being separated from each other, but he was still only 16, and Sara 15. It's really hard to say that without some more time and thought given to it.
I believe Setsuna's feelings were pretty solid, no matter how hard it was on him, or how the situation might have affected them. And his impulsive actions are just like him - run away. But if someone else had told him to be patient and wait, give it some time, would Sara have still felt the same later? Would Setsuna's feelings be as strong? He's too impatient. Also, some part of me thinks this is over-dramatic teenage behavior. But that kind of ruins the romance a little, huh?
That's where things start to unravel, for me. Particularly when their differences are analyzed, and the dubcon scene.
But I did still ship them. Then Yuki Kaori kills off Sara after only three volumes, and Setsuna nearly destroys the world over her. Nearly destroyed Kira, too. So selfish.
She brings out some of the WORST aspects of his personality. Sure, Sara talked him into returning Tokyo to save Kira. It was something he wanted to do, but then hesitated on because he would be separated from Sara again. Sara pointed out it was what they should do after Kira helped them, and she would find a way to stick by him anyway. She supported him then, and they feel all couple-like and cute. Then she dies. For him. That was volume three.
And we don't see her again until late volume seven-volume eight, and it's NOT with Setsuna.
When I first got into the series I felt like that helped me enjoy the coupling more, the fact they weren't the main focus of the series. I'm not the biggest person on romance, despite having strong coupling ideas. I don't like in my face kissy scenes with people being obnoxiously mushy. I like fighting for dominance, blood, battles, S&M, the occasional sweetness and kindness, but not overly done. I figured it was just because of my preferences.
It wasn't until later I realized Yuki Kaori had them grow so much as individuals ON THEIR OWN, rather than grow as a couple. The very thing I thought saved the couple for me, really killed it, in the end. Rather than them grow together, grow their relationship, you see them grow with everyone else. Sara is seen interacting with Raphael and Moonlily from volume eight to volume ten, up until Sara betrays Moonlily and uses her to escape to go to Setsuna.
And here is where you see Setsuna bring out the worst in Sara.
Moonlily is a sweet, trusting soul who really wouldn't know the difference, and never once thought Sara abandoned her. She even refused to leave with Setsuna when he showed up to save Sara. It's Sara that brings out the worst in Setsuna, and Setsuna that brings in the worst in her, causing her to use Lil as she did. But seeing Lil about to be tortured by Sevy, Setsuna loses control in anger, and ruins his disguise to save her from that. Some random grigori he doesn't even know brings out one of his more noble traits, and his empathy in full power. He could have sneaked back out without issue if he hadn't impulsively reacted, but who knows what would have happened to Lil.
Sure, in the end, he led Sevy right to Zaphkiel and opened his big mouth on top of it, showing some of his worst traits, but right before then he still showed some of his better, just not over Sara.
Now, I'm not going to say friends or total strangers should never give support or advice. This happens plenty, in relationships or not. You can't always go to your significant other for everything. That's not something I think plausible or realistic. However, we should see SOME support, help and pokes in the right direction, etc, from the significant other, or how is this couple to be sold to me? I can't get behind a couple where everyone on the outside seems to support the two more than they support and help each other. Or where the pokes and pushes all in the right direction come from only one side. It was mainly Sara telling Setsuna what the right thing to do was. His biggest support to her was towards the end, when he told her material possessions didn't matter - she did. But that was all about her, different when compared to the things she told him. For some people the couple seems to work. But for me, I just didn't care for this. I wanted more.
Volume 12 is when Setsuna and Sara finally meet again, and while Zaphkiel is, yes, manipulating the scene for his own selfish desires, he still made Sara realize her wrongs. She still finally understood how selfish she had been and turns to leave. I'm not saying she shouldn't have. She made the right choice, but Yuki Kaori should have thought some about the relationship she's trying to make here and supported it a bit more. Showed more of it. I think she could have still developed a kickass girl out of Sara, while still making the couple more appealing to me.
If Sara is walking away from Setsuna and it's the right thing to do, how does that sell the relationship? What does that mean for the relationship? Also, the way she did it left Setsuna confused, and not willing to do what he should have done, either. This caused Zaphkiel to get involved, and, sadly captured, due to Setsuna's lack of understanding and stubborn nature. Something Zaphkiel also counted on. He had prepared to be taken from the beginning.
Not that Setsuna didn't mess up there, he screwed up royally, and deserved far worse than he received for it, no matter how guilty and upset he felt for it. But still, Sara, his girlfriend, didn't HELP. She didn't make it clear enough for him so he wouldn't follow her. He was broken hearted and confused. This doesn't excuse his selfish actions, but she should know her boyfriend well enough not to make things WORSE. She told him to do the right thing, but he didn't quite get the message with how it was relayed. That's not Sara's fault, either. And it was a lesson Setsuna needed to learn as a protagonist.
But if they don't understand each other on that level...I'm supposed to buy this as a couple? Compared to Lucifer and Alexiel who can plan elaborately with barely even looks? No, sorry. I ship couples like Rosiel/Katan, Lucifer/Alexiel. They are very messed up. But there's this deep understanding in them that Setsuna and Sara don't seem to have to me.
She ditched him, and Katou and Kira were left to pick up the pieces. Also, that's a grand total of, what, maybe four volumes we see those two interact up to this point? That significant. It means we see Sara interact with Michael, Raphael, Moonlily, Sevi, and maybe even Ruri, more than Setsuna. Her boyfriend. As someone who plays both characters at times, this is very important to me. I have a better idea of how they should both interact with other people than EACH OTHER. That's a little rough for a RPer.
We also see Setsuna interact more with Kurai, Kira and Katou more than his own girlfriend. We see Kira and Katou pick up the pieces of Setsuna Sara left behind and give him the push he needed to stop moping around.
Because the next time they meet up? Is volume 16, after Sara's mindrape by Sandalphon, and her greeting to Setsuna is to beat him over the head until he's bleeding.
I can't say I'm comfortable supporting a coupling where either person involved is so emotionally dependent and screwed up in their ideas of love they would allow their significant other to treat them that way, messed up or not. Face it, if Setsuna was a girl and Sara the guy, how disgusting would that scene have been to some people? I find it disturbing either way, and it made me think Setsuna might need someone very thoughtful and understanding of his needs, while still not willing to put up with his bullshit. Someone to teach him to stick up for himself a bit better when it counts, and back off a little more when it's not necessary.
Oh. Sorry. Kira already did that.
What I would have wanted to see to believe more strongly in this coupling? Is a scene of Setsuna strongly supporting Sara.
Oh. Right. Raphael did that one.
I think to sell the coupling for me, Yuki Kaori would have needed to switch things up a bit more, with more of the siblings supporting each other, and less of it being the outsiders and friends. Because, otherwise, it's everyone else that starts to look couple-esque and romantic, rather than them. And maybe given them more screen time together? And Sara more screen time period? She's supposed to be our heroine, but she spends about a third to a half of her screen time (which is four-fifths of the series) trapped in a nightmare and not herself. A fifth of the series she spent dead.
Don't get me wrong. I adore Sara. She had the nerve to stand up to her mother, to society, to Sevi and all of Heaven. She turned around to save Lil and did the right thing. She became an incredible, strong character I think Yuki Kaori could have done much better with than mindrape and incapacitate her for the last four volumes of the series.
But the more she shines like that, away from Setsuna, the less their relationship looks appealing. Why doesn't she shine that brightly in his presence? Shouldn't she, as his girlfriend, still be that bright?
When I thought about it, however, one of her most amazing moments, when she lectured all of Heaven on love, isn't something that would have happened if Setsuna had been allowed to reach her before Raphael did. At least, I don't think so, because the first thing he does when he gets there is rush right in, and he's always just stepped in front of her before. Who knows, things might have been different if Michael hadn't crashed into the court room.
But the fact Setsuna likely would've rushed in there and pulled her out might be why Yuki Kaori had to have Raphael show up instead. Raphael gave her the key to talk, and told her to, then stood behind her while she pointed out Sevy, threw out her accusations, spoke of her heart, and had a hand behind her back holding onto Raphael during it.
If she wanted to sell me on Setsuna/Sara? It should have been Setsuna standing behind her in that scene. But instead he always stands out in front of her to protect, rather than support the strong person Sara is.
And then the series ends with them embracing all smiles and I'm supposed to buy this as a happy ending? Um, no. I'm not satisfied. They maybe spent a total of what...five-six volumes out of twenty together, and very little of that was very inspiring or encouraging towards their relationship. Sure, they want it well enough, but want and love can only get you so far. There is still the matter of capability, chemistry, supporting each other, growing together as a couple, and growing as individuals to be better people for each other.
I'm not sure that really happened. Setsuna got in a fistfight over her with Raphael, after all. Again - she brings out the worst in him. Not that she's doing it on purpose, or that her actions cause this. It's just her presence in a situation that does it. He STILL loses sight of the more important things over her. It's completely his fault, but they should inspire each other to do better than that.
I realized later if one needs to walk away, if they grow SO MUCH without each other, are inspired more by those around them, and needed to spend the majority of the series separated and growing into better people during that to be sold as a couple, then they're probably not a very good couple at all, at least not one I can enjoy in fandom or RP. I'm sure Yuki Kaori intended this as some sort of trial road for them to walk, hence they needed to be separated, but along the way she made other things more appealing to me.
A couple I like is one I find myself wanting more of, not needing less for the sake of the story.
And that is why I don't ship Setsuna/Sara. The incest is one of the things that made it more interesting/bearable/better to me. That's probably not good.
What do I ship, then? Raphael/Sara and Setsuna/Kira, mostly. But those are better explained another time.
When the series started out, I didn't ship them at first. I'm sorry, but Sara beating on Setsuna for taking a beating was both a little appalling and immature. They came off as siblings then. I don't get the whole shoujo gag of girl beats up her boyfriend and it's cute/funny. It bothered me on a level I didn't even acknowledge, until I played him and a Sara slapped him for the first time and it jolted me something awful. She never even asked him why he was such a mess, she just automatically assumed it was a fight, when, really, reading about some of his past, it seems he was bullied for quite some time.
While, yes, Setsuna enjoys fighting, some of it seems to be a necessity of his every day life, and one Sara doesn't comprehend or sympathize with. He should probably be with someone that gets that, and understands his fighting spirit as well. Not to say that his big mouth doesn't bring on a lot of his problems. He, as well, should learn to keep some of his words to himself and find a better outlet. But her hitting him every time he said the wrong thing didn't seem to make any impact or difference on him. He did learn to control his temper better in canon, though.
But sometime after that, while both of them discover and fight their feelings, question themselves, are interrogated by others on them, it started to grow on me. Now they felt more like a couple and less like siblings. She wasn't hitting him anymore, though he was overly protective of her.
One thing worthy of note is the unbalance between them, Setsuna pushing her away for "her own good", rather than letting Sara decide for herself. Part of that is brought on by their mother lecturing him, though. Still, it makes for an unsettling couple, but I like screwed up couples with power imbalances and problems to work out, so this didn't work as an immediate deterrent, but rather made them more interesting. As did Setsuna dubconning Sara.
Yes. You read that right. He dubcons her. He continues in their sexual activities when Sara told him to wait, and that she wasn't ready yet. A Sara player I talked to said that Sara might have liked that, and I could almost view this as Setsuna understanding she was momentarily nervous, but didn't actually want to stop, but still. This unnerved me. Setsuna had seemed so selfish with everything and everyone BUT Sara until right then, then does something so disturbing as that. It was hard to reconcile that with how he usually treated her, so I ignored that for some time.
What sold me on them was when Sara stood up to her mother and all of society and chose her brother, whom she had real feelings for, over going with her mother to another country to become engaged to some man she had never met before. Sadly enough, ditching her mother was the more healthy option. Her mother was being far too controlling. While I'm sure she had Sara's best interests at heart, she was making decisions FOR HER about HER future. Something Sara should have the most say in.
It wasn't until later I realized things might have played out differently if Sara wasn't being pressured into such an outrageous ordeal, forced into an arranged marriage. Without that, with a kind, HEALTHY mother, would she have been driven into this corner? Would she still have picked Setsuna? Would the siblings be as obsessed with each other if they hadn't been parted by her? Setsuna was certain his feelings weren't derived solely from the forbidden, or just being separated from each other, but he was still only 16, and Sara 15. It's really hard to say that without some more time and thought given to it.
I believe Setsuna's feelings were pretty solid, no matter how hard it was on him, or how the situation might have affected them. And his impulsive actions are just like him - run away. But if someone else had told him to be patient and wait, give it some time, would Sara have still felt the same later? Would Setsuna's feelings be as strong? He's too impatient. Also, some part of me thinks this is over-dramatic teenage behavior. But that kind of ruins the romance a little, huh?
That's where things start to unravel, for me. Particularly when their differences are analyzed, and the dubcon scene.
But I did still ship them. Then Yuki Kaori kills off Sara after only three volumes, and Setsuna nearly destroys the world over her. Nearly destroyed Kira, too. So selfish.
She brings out some of the WORST aspects of his personality. Sure, Sara talked him into returning Tokyo to save Kira. It was something he wanted to do, but then hesitated on because he would be separated from Sara again. Sara pointed out it was what they should do after Kira helped them, and she would find a way to stick by him anyway. She supported him then, and they feel all couple-like and cute. Then she dies. For him. That was volume three.
And we don't see her again until late volume seven-volume eight, and it's NOT with Setsuna.
When I first got into the series I felt like that helped me enjoy the coupling more, the fact they weren't the main focus of the series. I'm not the biggest person on romance, despite having strong coupling ideas. I don't like in my face kissy scenes with people being obnoxiously mushy. I like fighting for dominance, blood, battles, S&M, the occasional sweetness and kindness, but not overly done. I figured it was just because of my preferences.
It wasn't until later I realized Yuki Kaori had them grow so much as individuals ON THEIR OWN, rather than grow as a couple. The very thing I thought saved the couple for me, really killed it, in the end. Rather than them grow together, grow their relationship, you see them grow with everyone else. Sara is seen interacting with Raphael and Moonlily from volume eight to volume ten, up until Sara betrays Moonlily and uses her to escape to go to Setsuna.
And here is where you see Setsuna bring out the worst in Sara.
Moonlily is a sweet, trusting soul who really wouldn't know the difference, and never once thought Sara abandoned her. She even refused to leave with Setsuna when he showed up to save Sara. It's Sara that brings out the worst in Setsuna, and Setsuna that brings in the worst in her, causing her to use Lil as she did. But seeing Lil about to be tortured by Sevy, Setsuna loses control in anger, and ruins his disguise to save her from that. Some random grigori he doesn't even know brings out one of his more noble traits, and his empathy in full power. He could have sneaked back out without issue if he hadn't impulsively reacted, but who knows what would have happened to Lil.
Sure, in the end, he led Sevy right to Zaphkiel and opened his big mouth on top of it, showing some of his worst traits, but right before then he still showed some of his better, just not over Sara.
Now, I'm not going to say friends or total strangers should never give support or advice. This happens plenty, in relationships or not. You can't always go to your significant other for everything. That's not something I think plausible or realistic. However, we should see SOME support, help and pokes in the right direction, etc, from the significant other, or how is this couple to be sold to me? I can't get behind a couple where everyone on the outside seems to support the two more than they support and help each other. Or where the pokes and pushes all in the right direction come from only one side. It was mainly Sara telling Setsuna what the right thing to do was. His biggest support to her was towards the end, when he told her material possessions didn't matter - she did. But that was all about her, different when compared to the things she told him. For some people the couple seems to work. But for me, I just didn't care for this. I wanted more.
Volume 12 is when Setsuna and Sara finally meet again, and while Zaphkiel is, yes, manipulating the scene for his own selfish desires, he still made Sara realize her wrongs. She still finally understood how selfish she had been and turns to leave. I'm not saying she shouldn't have. She made the right choice, but Yuki Kaori should have thought some about the relationship she's trying to make here and supported it a bit more. Showed more of it. I think she could have still developed a kickass girl out of Sara, while still making the couple more appealing to me.
If Sara is walking away from Setsuna and it's the right thing to do, how does that sell the relationship? What does that mean for the relationship? Also, the way she did it left Setsuna confused, and not willing to do what he should have done, either. This caused Zaphkiel to get involved, and, sadly captured, due to Setsuna's lack of understanding and stubborn nature. Something Zaphkiel also counted on. He had prepared to be taken from the beginning.
Not that Setsuna didn't mess up there, he screwed up royally, and deserved far worse than he received for it, no matter how guilty and upset he felt for it. But still, Sara, his girlfriend, didn't HELP. She didn't make it clear enough for him so he wouldn't follow her. He was broken hearted and confused. This doesn't excuse his selfish actions, but she should know her boyfriend well enough not to make things WORSE. She told him to do the right thing, but he didn't quite get the message with how it was relayed. That's not Sara's fault, either. And it was a lesson Setsuna needed to learn as a protagonist.
But if they don't understand each other on that level...I'm supposed to buy this as a couple? Compared to Lucifer and Alexiel who can plan elaborately with barely even looks? No, sorry. I ship couples like Rosiel/Katan, Lucifer/Alexiel. They are very messed up. But there's this deep understanding in them that Setsuna and Sara don't seem to have to me.
She ditched him, and Katou and Kira were left to pick up the pieces. Also, that's a grand total of, what, maybe four volumes we see those two interact up to this point? That significant. It means we see Sara interact with Michael, Raphael, Moonlily, Sevi, and maybe even Ruri, more than Setsuna. Her boyfriend. As someone who plays both characters at times, this is very important to me. I have a better idea of how they should both interact with other people than EACH OTHER. That's a little rough for a RPer.
We also see Setsuna interact more with Kurai, Kira and Katou more than his own girlfriend. We see Kira and Katou pick up the pieces of Setsuna Sara left behind and give him the push he needed to stop moping around.
Because the next time they meet up? Is volume 16, after Sara's mindrape by Sandalphon, and her greeting to Setsuna is to beat him over the head until he's bleeding.
I can't say I'm comfortable supporting a coupling where either person involved is so emotionally dependent and screwed up in their ideas of love they would allow their significant other to treat them that way, messed up or not. Face it, if Setsuna was a girl and Sara the guy, how disgusting would that scene have been to some people? I find it disturbing either way, and it made me think Setsuna might need someone very thoughtful and understanding of his needs, while still not willing to put up with his bullshit. Someone to teach him to stick up for himself a bit better when it counts, and back off a little more when it's not necessary.
Oh. Sorry. Kira already did that.
What I would have wanted to see to believe more strongly in this coupling? Is a scene of Setsuna strongly supporting Sara.
Oh. Right. Raphael did that one.
I think to sell the coupling for me, Yuki Kaori would have needed to switch things up a bit more, with more of the siblings supporting each other, and less of it being the outsiders and friends. Because, otherwise, it's everyone else that starts to look couple-esque and romantic, rather than them. And maybe given them more screen time together? And Sara more screen time period? She's supposed to be our heroine, but she spends about a third to a half of her screen time (which is four-fifths of the series) trapped in a nightmare and not herself. A fifth of the series she spent dead.
Don't get me wrong. I adore Sara. She had the nerve to stand up to her mother, to society, to Sevi and all of Heaven. She turned around to save Lil and did the right thing. She became an incredible, strong character I think Yuki Kaori could have done much better with than mindrape and incapacitate her for the last four volumes of the series.
But the more she shines like that, away from Setsuna, the less their relationship looks appealing. Why doesn't she shine that brightly in his presence? Shouldn't she, as his girlfriend, still be that bright?
When I thought about it, however, one of her most amazing moments, when she lectured all of Heaven on love, isn't something that would have happened if Setsuna had been allowed to reach her before Raphael did. At least, I don't think so, because the first thing he does when he gets there is rush right in, and he's always just stepped in front of her before. Who knows, things might have been different if Michael hadn't crashed into the court room.
But the fact Setsuna likely would've rushed in there and pulled her out might be why Yuki Kaori had to have Raphael show up instead. Raphael gave her the key to talk, and told her to, then stood behind her while she pointed out Sevy, threw out her accusations, spoke of her heart, and had a hand behind her back holding onto Raphael during it.
If she wanted to sell me on Setsuna/Sara? It should have been Setsuna standing behind her in that scene. But instead he always stands out in front of her to protect, rather than support the strong person Sara is.
And then the series ends with them embracing all smiles and I'm supposed to buy this as a happy ending? Um, no. I'm not satisfied. They maybe spent a total of what...five-six volumes out of twenty together, and very little of that was very inspiring or encouraging towards their relationship. Sure, they want it well enough, but want and love can only get you so far. There is still the matter of capability, chemistry, supporting each other, growing together as a couple, and growing as individuals to be better people for each other.
I'm not sure that really happened. Setsuna got in a fistfight over her with Raphael, after all. Again - she brings out the worst in him. Not that she's doing it on purpose, or that her actions cause this. It's just her presence in a situation that does it. He STILL loses sight of the more important things over her. It's completely his fault, but they should inspire each other to do better than that.
I realized later if one needs to walk away, if they grow SO MUCH without each other, are inspired more by those around them, and needed to spend the majority of the series separated and growing into better people during that to be sold as a couple, then they're probably not a very good couple at all, at least not one I can enjoy in fandom or RP. I'm sure Yuki Kaori intended this as some sort of trial road for them to walk, hence they needed to be separated, but along the way she made other things more appealing to me.
A couple I like is one I find myself wanting more of, not needing less for the sake of the story.
And that is why I don't ship Setsuna/Sara. The incest is one of the things that made it more interesting/bearable/better to me. That's probably not good.
What do I ship, then? Raphael/Sara and Setsuna/Kira, mostly. But those are better explained another time.